GEM in 2018 ?

Atari talk, or the life and the universe and things. Just keep it clean!
Petari
Software Moderator
Software Moderator
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: GEM in 2018 ?

Post by Petari » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:28 am

Actually, there was more of SW like Gemulator: TOSWIN, and Aranym is it actually.
There is 2 kind of people: one thinking about moving to Mars after here becomes too bad, the others thinking about how to keep this planet habitable.

Petari
Software Moderator
Software Moderator
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: GEM in 2018 ?

Post by Petari » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:05 am

exxos wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:29 am
...
I think there is room for hardware like ST's running GEM. Its more advanced than some are using today. PI is good for getting stuff done easily, and gets people into hardware and software, but thats all cheating and lazy IMHO. Next step real computer system , maybe even Z80 based as proper starting point, or maybe ST with its 68000 CPU.
...
If goal is to learn basic principle of how some computer works, something simple and straight like Z80 based, or could be 6502 CPU (what is even simpler) is good idea. They actually work in same basic way as newest computers. There is memory, CPU reads instructions, possible data and executes it, then go on next and so on. To make it usable, needs to have ROM, what will initialize system, and RAM for SW and variables, screen .... Computers like Spectrum, C64, Atari XL did not have real OS. It was basic interpreters with some primitive I/O system, mostly for tapes.

Atari ST and 68000 go step further - there is real OS in machine, CPU supports layered access to HW, peripherals via vectors, there are calls to access disk in lower level - XBIOS 8, or higher level - filesystem . That was natural progress, caused by fact that 8-bit computers were normally not compatible with previous one from same house, so needed completely new SW .
I would call Atari ST architecture as second stage - it took care that OS updates remain compatible with older SW (not 100% successfully made, though) , but expected same HW.
Third stage would be flexibility with HW in some level, mostly with add-on cards, which need of course to follow some minimal specs. That requires another layer - HAL - hardware abstract layer - after what comes specific driver for concrete card. In case of Atari there is only 1 - VDI, Line-A call.
In case of some 8-bit machine there is only direct HW access for screen draw. Well, not 100%, because you can write txt via OS calls. Hmm, on Spectrum was even Circle command :D
As multitasking came in, memory protection was necessary . And many other things ...
There is 2 kind of people: one thinking about moving to Mars after here becomes too bad, the others thinking about how to keep this planet habitable.

keli
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: GEM in 2018 ?

Post by keli » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:59 am

@petari: let's just agree to disagree on this and move on. Neither will convince the other he's right. We have different goals with what we're doing.

Petari
Software Moderator
Software Moderator
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:32 pm

Re: GEM in 2018 ?

Post by Petari » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:36 am

keli wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:59 am
@petari: let's just agree to disagree on this and move on. Neither will convince the other he's right. We have different goals with what we're doing.
Yes, that's what some call nice solution. But I would rather to hear some arguments - for instance why you think that SW accessing HW is bad, and why it "works bad in EmuTOS and works with original TOS" . Just don't get me wrong. I'm for making some new TOS compatible replacement or call it whatever you like. There are things what can be done better for sure. And EmuTOS solved some better. And some not. And speed is not good too. And that's not subjective. For end: if EmuTOS people want make it more popular, should listen on what people say. I see nothing from it, just repeating same things, rejecting any constructive critic.
There is 2 kind of people: one thinking about moving to Mars after here becomes too bad, the others thinking about how to keep this planet habitable.

keli
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:34 pm

Re: GEM in 2018 ?

Post by keli » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:53 pm

Petari wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:36 am
Yes, that's what some call nice solution. But I would rather to hear some arguments - for instance why you think that SW accessing HW is bad, and why it "works bad in EmuTOS and works with original TOS" . Just don't get me wrong. I'm for making some new TOS compatible replacement or call it whatever you like. There are things what can be done better for sure. And EmuTOS solved some better. And some not. And speed is not good too. And that's not subjective. For end: if EmuTOS people want make it more popular, should listen on what people say. I see nothing from it, just repeating same things, rejecting any constructive critic.
I'm not one of "the EmuTOS" people and can't answer for them. I didn't say accessing HW was bad. If you know which hardware you're running on and know you're never going to run on other hardware (or have generic fallbacks), then accessing HW is fine. My project started out with the question: "As EmuTOS already runs non-Atari hardware (Amiga), and even not-quite-m68k architectures (Coldfire), could one port it to a completely different architecture like the Armv8 on the RaspberryPI?" I know there are different routes to run TOS software on other computers. I've even played around with creating a solution similar to what you describe in ParaTOS. Heck, Aranym with its native interfaces and custom fVDI drivers can be seen as a middle ground solution between a pure hardware emulator and a user space emulator as you describe. (Rendering etc. are run natively, but application code is emulated.) But my project has a completely different premise, and as we're straying more and more off-topic, I prefer not to continue discussing it, thanks.

User avatar
exxos
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4529
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:19 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: GEM in 2018 ?

Post by exxos » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:10 pm

I'm closing this thread, its gone to far off topic to discussing usefulness of GEM in 2018 to various other OS branches etc.

If anyone wants to talk about OS alternatives /branches then please open new topic.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - 4MB STE 32MHz - STFM 16MHz - STM - MEGA ST - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - HxC - CosmosEx - Ultrasatan - various clutter

https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.

Locked