68040 machine

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mrbombermillzy
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68040 machine

Post by mrbombermillzy » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:08 pm

I recently got hold of an old Mac which I thought could be interesting from a cross comilation point of view.

Its a Quadra 660AV and includes a Motorola 68040 @25Mhz and a TI DSP chip. Apparently this model also includes some decent DMA chip. It sounds like it could be used as a souped up Falcon. Cant wait to see what it can do.

Thats where the problem is. There is absolutely no hardware manuals that deal with the hardware whatsoever. Everything is programmed through the less than optimal OS and Apples version of C. I can understand that hitting hardware direct is frowned upon by the manufacturer, but there should be something about it available by now (25 years later!).

The OS ROMs are set in such a way as they contain a forked system, with data and code intermingled which makes reading the code very difficult. So theres no real way of reverse engineering the OS calls to find out about hitting the custom Apple ICs directly.

Theres a couple of guys that Im keeping an eye on (I mean 2 guys!) trying to slowly unravel it all, but REALLY has no one made any scene demos in assembly for these machines?? I cant find ANYTHING like what we have for the Atari/Amiga platforms.

ATM I guess coding C for the main part with a few bits in assembly and putting up with all the OS interrupt services (so sloppy timing) is the only way to go with these things.

Am I missing something here?

P.S. Im not really an Apple guy, so forgive me if Im being naiive about some of the points mentioned above.

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DrF
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Re: 68040 machine

Post by DrF » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:56 pm

mrbombermillzy wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:08 pm

Theres a couple of guys that Im keeping an eye on (I mean 2 guys!) trying to slowly unravel it all, but REALLY has no one made any scene demos in assembly for these machines?? I cant find ANYTHING like what we have for the Atari/Amiga platforms.
I think the lack of a scene might be partly down to these machines not being very popular in the home like the ST/Amigas were, I don't remember anyone having any Apple anything then, there also quite exotic with a price to match, also a bit specialist use, I remember our school art department buying one and there being a great argument over weather to buy another 8mb ram for the thing... no such argument was heard about the 486 SX 25s that where all over the place though :lol:

mrbombermillzy
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Re: 68040 machine

Post by mrbombermillzy » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:06 pm

So it seems.

Its a shame really, as the basic Quadra machines seem to be similar to the Atari ST, with the CPU doing all the work and a framebuffer style screen.

mfro
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Re: 68040 machine

Post by mfro » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:13 am

Apple did not reveal many details of the inner workings of their machines and required coders to set up on top of the OS only.

If I remember right, there is Linux m68k available for the Quadras. I'm pretty sure you will find most of what you need in there, Linux folks have done a lot of reengineering.
And remember: Beethoven wrote his first symphony in C.

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arf
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Re: 68040 machine

Post by arf » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:31 pm

mrbombermillzy wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:08 pm
Its a Quadra 660AV and includes a Motorola 68040 @25Mhz and a TI DSP chip. Apparently this model also includes some decent DMA chip. It sounds like it could be used as a souped up Falcon. Cant wait to see what it can do.

Thats where the problem is. There is absolutely no hardware manuals that deal with the hardware whatsoever. Everything is programmed through the less than optimal OS and Apples version of C.
You can choose from a variety of C compilers for Mac OS or UNIX, you don’t have to use Apple’s. And there is no “Apple version of C”, this is plain ANSI C or C++.
mrbombermillzy wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:08 pm
The OS ROMs are set in such a way as they contain a forked system, with data and code intermingled which makes reading the code very difficult. So theres no real way of reverse engineering the OS calls to find out about hitting the custom Apple ICs directly.
If you target the ROM code with the proper tools (the toolchain built for the Mac), you will see the matrix, as it will care about what you call "intermingled" :-)
mrbombermillzy wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:08 pm
Theres a couple of guys that Im keeping an eye on (I mean 2 guys!) trying to slowly unravel it all, but REALLY has no one made any scene demos in assembly for these machines?? I cant find ANYTHING like what we have for the Atari/Amiga platforms.
Yup, there is no real demo scene for the 68k Mac.

You’ll find open source code for the machine here: http://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/mac68k/
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mrbombermillzy
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Re: 68040 machine

Post by mrbombermillzy » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:41 pm

arf wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:31 pm
You can choose from a variety of C compilers for Mac OS or UNIX, you don’t have to use Apple’s. And there is no “Apple version of C”, this is plain ANSI C or C++.
Dont they mainly use Objective C on Macs?
arf wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:31 pm
If you target the ROM code with the proper tools (the toolchain built for the Mac), you will see the matrix, as it will care about what you call "intermingled" :-)
This criptic line sounds intriguing! Please elaborate! :)
arf wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:31 pm
Yup, there is no real demo scene for the 68k Mac.

You’ll find open source code for the machine here: http://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/mac68k/
Thanks for the info, I will have a look.

stephen_usher
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Re: 68040 machine

Post by stephen_usher » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:52 pm

mrbombermillzy wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:41 pm
arf wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:31 pm
You can choose from a variety of C compilers for Mac OS or UNIX, you don’t have to use Apple’s. And there is no “Apple version of C”, this is plain ANSI C or C++.
Dont they mainly use Objective C on Macs?
Not really, that originated from NeXT and hence is MacOS X and later. (MacOS X, or macOS as it is now, is really NeXTstep with MacOS-like additions.)

Objective C itself was originally a object oriented adaptation of C implemented using a pre-processor and pre-dated C++. Later on native Objective C compiler front-ends, such as that in GCC, were written.
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.

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