Fascinating

Atari talk, or the life and the universe and things. Just keep it clean!
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Petari
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Fascinating

Post by Petari » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:17 am

http://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=33202
I like especially Joska's comments - wait, he is "Hardware Guru" - how smart his HW comments then can be :lol:
There is 2 kind of people: one thinking about moving to Mars after here becomes too bad, the others thinking about how to keep this planet habitable.

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exxos
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Re: Fascinating

Post by exxos » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:36 am

I took one look, 5 seconds, he insults basic programmers like myself... yeah, its why I dont go there because people like him. He never thinks maybe he should shut the hell up for once.. but nope, evern moderators let him continue day after day and others :roll:

I used both asm and basic long time ago, I had exams on both. I mostly use STOS for ST, but did assembly on Z80, also pic hardware, I found it pretty simple. asm tends to gets more complicated for larger more complex software. Depends on goal of project.

Though like when I did gembench6, I make choice to program GUI in basic, why? no need for asm or fast work. Would just take stupid long time to program for no real gain. All sensitive routines were done by d.m.l in assembly. So there are also choices to be made when to use basic and when to use asm. Its a good choice, no need for asm at all in GUI... its dumb to use asm in this case... and saying basic programmers are dumb.. well.. Just another day of insults on AF and why I setup this forum ;)
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - 4MB STE 32MHz - STFM 16MHz - STM - MEGA ST - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - HxC - CosmosEx - Ultrasatan - various clutter

https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
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Petari
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Re: Fascinating

Post by Petari » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:12 am

There is saying that every SW what serves it's purpose well is good SW. If you can solve task with Basic, it is good. And there is lot of simple things where Basic is OK. And for beginners Basic is very good, even if today it is not popular/recommended way.
But there are other very stupid claims - like that ASM coder will be lost after some line number of source. Of course, you can make it well structured in ASM too, as in any programming language. And also, your C source can me complete mess. It is not about language, but attitude.
Many depends from programmer's habit, experience. For me is simpler to do GUI in ASM too, just because I can follow it better than C. Yes, no need for ASM for GUI, what consists in case of GEM of many AES calls, so speed depends practically 100% from OS. But I have some libraries done in past, and they make all it pretty much like coding in some high level language. What in fact is some high level language.
I coded pretty much with Z80 ASM in my Spectrum time. Must say that I like much more 68000 ASM. Indeed, harder to go in, but then you see how much more efficient it is. I see a lot of unnecessary extra code in SW, what is probably just remain of Z80 and similar CPU coding:
move.w adr,d0
tst.w d0
or even worse: cmp.w #0,d0
No - 68000 did set flags in move operation already, so no need for extra test.
So, I would say that more important from 'what language' is how well you can use it.
There is 2 kind of people: one thinking about moving to Mars after here becomes too bad, the others thinking about how to keep this planet habitable.

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Re: Fascinating

Post by IngoQ » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:22 am

exxos wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:36 am
So, I would say that more important from 'what language' is how well you can use it.
Second that.

Yes, of course it is simpler to have structured code in a language that actually supports or even requires structure. And yes, starting with a language that requires structure might be beneficial, since you start with good habits. That being said, A lot has been achieved by Assembler and BASIC coders, so why look down on these languages? Firstly it is a matter of skill, only after that, it is a matter of the tools. Like my old dad always said: A true master can work with pretty much anything ;)

And even today: There ist still Visual Basic and Visual Basic for Applications on Windows Platforms and it is widely used. I had my first programming experiences with Atari XL BASIC, and the fact that I could get results really fast was a strong influence in not using my computers primarily as toys, as all most of my friends did.
Ingo :geek:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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Re: Fascinating

Post by exxos » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:42 am

IngoQ wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:22 am
Like my old dad always said: A true master can work with pretty much anything ;)
I like that! :thumbup:

IngoQ wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:22 am
And even today: There ist still Visual Basic and Visual Basic for Applications on Windows Platforms and it is widely used. I had my first programming experiences with Atari XL BASIC, and the fact that I could get results really fast was a strong influence in not using my computers primarily as toys, as most of my friends did.
I wrote a ROM split program in VB6 a few weeks ago.. I just wanted a quick program to do multiple things the way I wanted to, And for this VB6 is ideal. I could have wrote it in PHP just as easily, but I don't run a server locally, so uploading files to my server to run a PHP script would just be silly. And I sure would not try assembly on the PC either. The people claiming superiority for assembly for every usage are incredibly small minded.
Petari wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:12 am
There is saying that every SW what serves it's purpose well is good SW. If you can solve task with Basic, it is good. And there is lot of simple things where Basic is OK. And for beginners Basic is very good, even if today it is not popular/recommended way.
Exactly . It does depend on goal of Project, there are of course advantages and disadvantages for them, but at the end of the day it is up to the coder how he wants to do the project and the results he wants to obtain. If other people are not happy with this, then they can program their own versions or simply shut up.

I wrote years ago formatter program for STOS. It uses the trap routines if I remember correctly. Very similar coding if I was using those routines in assembler. The basically STOS is just the GUI to it all.

Image


And indeed more professional version...

Image


Sure assembly may run the program little faster.. But of the end of the day it was my project and I just wanted to have some fun writing my own software. Ultimately a lot of people just want to learn some basic programming and have a little fun. So in this respect the language is totally irrelevant.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - 4MB STE 32MHz - STFM 16MHz - STM - MEGA ST - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - HxC - CosmosEx - Ultrasatan - various clutter

https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.

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Re: Fascinating

Post by rubber_jonnie » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:40 am

I wouldn't class myself as a programmer per-se, but I do use scripts for a lot of things, and I have used BASIC a lot many years ago (Should have kept it up TBH, but hey ho).

By the standards of that post, I am mentally mutilated.

I recently had to repair some faulty directory structure that had created extra directories with the same name and file extension as the file in it.

My tool of choice was Powershell, I did it in under 20 lines of code, and repaired the directory structure successfully. To do it in C would have been way over the top, and BASIC would have served the job better if there was no Powershell. The resulting code was very like BASIC in fact.

The tool does not matter, at the end of the day, it's just a tool. You use the right tool for the job, or a combination of tools depending on the desired outcome.

Those people on AF really don't do themselves any favours do they?
Collector of old Atari things:
800XL + Ape Warp mod, 2x 1010 cassette, 1050 + Happy mod, 65XE (128k) & XC12, SIO2SD, 2600jr, 7800 and Lynx II
Atari 520ST (1Meg) + Gotek, 1040STFM + Vortex ATOnce + Gotek, 1040STF long button floppy, 4160 STE with Gotek and ROM switcher, 4160STE with 32Mhz booster, ROM switcher and CosmosEx, not to mention various bare ST boards for testing including a PAK 68/2 :)
Plus the rest..
Amiga stuff, Mac stuff, Sinclair stuff etc...
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exxos
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Re: Fascinating

Post by exxos » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:52 am

rubber_jonnie wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:40 am
The tool does not matter, at the end of the day, it's just a tool. You use the right tool for the job, or a combination of tools depending on the desired outcome.
Indeed. It totally depends on time you have to spend on the project and the desired results.
rubber_jonnie wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:40 am
Those people on AF really don't do themselves any favours do they?
Nope :roll: opinion is always based on themselves, they never look at viewpoints from other people's perspective.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - 4MB STE 32MHz - STFM 16MHz - STM - MEGA ST - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - HxC - CosmosEx - Ultrasatan - various clutter

https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.

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Re: Fascinating

Post by DrF » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:34 pm

I made a series of dial tone interface keypad things for a phone system in Klick and Play in the mid 90's. It worked really well it was just a GUI with big buttons that made the sounds.No need to get complex with making windows, mouse pointers and sound players it worked on the Windows PCs which was a miracle in itself, they all fitted on a floppy :lol: and took only a few hours to throw together.

Quick, simple, small and worked on the PC's of the day flawlessly. Although the dev tool was made for making simple drag and drop games.

Years later that tool was replaced with a series of macros on XP again just worked :p

Here's that tool in action, it was made by the STOS/AMOS people too :D

Image

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Re: Fascinating

Post by IngoQ » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:14 pm

Fitting example today:

A colleague was struggling with checking user rights in our Active Directory. He needed a list of all users and their user groups and spent most of the day with checking user by user.

I Just wrote him a small script in AutoIt, which in fact is pretty much BASIC, but with a focus on windows automation. The script reads all user entries in the AD, finds all groups the user is in and exports this as a CSV file.

This was done in 23 lines of code in less then an hour and probably saves my colleague days of work.
Ingo :geek:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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