STE V1.5 32MHz BOOSTER - STATUS

Help & information about the STE V1 series boosters.
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sandord
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Re: STE V1.5 32MHz BOOSTER - STATUS

Post by sandord »

exxos wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:00 pm There will be about 8 going into my store tomorrow..

https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/atari/store2/#0147

I'm not going to spend anymore time of these for the foreseeable future.

Time to move onto the V2.2 Booster boards now.
Congratulations, it must be a huge relief for you! :bravo: :thanksyellow: :cheer:
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Re: STE V1.5 32MHz BOOSTER - STATUS

Post by exxos »

In light of recent endeavours.. While this booster is currently requiring linking back to the STE 32MHz clock and new firmware.. Oddly a firmware I created does work at 36MHz.. But this requires the CPU CLK inverting, which means the 8MHz clock is out of phase with the motherboard so I am not happy with that solution.

But also, reprogramming a 22V10 GAL hundreds of times as a total nightmare as I keep having to remove it from the socket, but it in the programmer, but it back in the socket, with my poorly fingers I just had to stop doing that.

What I have started tonight is a ATF1502 PLCC 44 PLD to 22V10 adapter... Which will basically be the same as there Altera board I did ages ago.. https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/forum/viewt ... &t=76#p202 This way I can do "in circuit programming".

But more to the point, I think the problem is the clock low times are being violated during switching transitions... I'm too lazy to take scope captures of this at the moment, but basically when switching from 32MHz to 8MHz, it always starts the 8 MHz cycle on the low part. And it always starts on the low part and finishes it in switching into 32MHz. When using the STE's 32MHz clock, this timing is always identical it is always stable. However when using a external oscillator such as 36MHz, that low period is basically random and that is that I believe where things are going wrong.

The way to solve this is to have both clocks being used to switch the frequencies, however a limitation of the 22V10 is it can only have one clock input to drive the flip-flops, which has to be 32MHz, and there is no way to even manually create this delay as the 22V10 simply doesn't have enough LA's or IOs. So moving to more "mature" PLD such as the ATF1502 is the only way I can create proper sync logic.

I have done some tests by delaying the 8MHz clock by a "double inverter" and also use that in the sync logic, basically just adding a few ns (about 40ns) so it stretches the clock edges out of it, so when I sync to them, they are actually slightly out of sync to what the ST clock is doing. Basically a type of "pulse stretcher" so it is just enough to get the 36MHz running stable and the hard drive also works perfectly as well. But it is all just too much logic to fit into the 22V10 to do it all properly.

So future V1.5 batches will have to be linked to the STE's 32MHz clock like the V1 booster. I don't know when I will get chance to do more boards, I will be have to a third party to assemble a few.. Meanwhile I will finish designing this ATF adapter board, and in a couple of weeks time I can experiment with the code a lot better and see if I can bring back a 36MHz or 40MHz booster. Work on this will probably be somewhat slow though.

EDIT:

Crappy adapter PCB done.
e671b9941312b1daf105d14bbac803e7.png
e671b9941312b1daf105d14bbac803e7.png (146.54 KiB) Viewed 6306 times
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viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1585 Have you done the Mandatory Fixes ?
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Re: STE V1.5 32MHz BOOSTER - STATUS

Post by exxos »

Been messing about with the Atmel PLD for the past few hours.. Long story short, I'm having trouble even getting the STE 32MHz clock stable :roll:

So the bottom line is, should I produce another batch of this booster, it will just have to use the STE 32MHz clock. Though more testing will have to be done with current firmware fixes for that.

I'm not going to keep spending time on this as I have too many other projects which need my attention. So this project is being put on hold for the foreseeable future.

IMG_3812.JPG
IMG_3812.JPG (149.63 KiB) Viewed 6247 times
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viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1585 Have you done the Mandatory Fixes ?
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Re: STE V1.5 32MHz BOOSTER - STATUS

Post by rubber_jonnie »

At present I'm struggling to be able to program anything but Lattice 22V10C GALS.

My TL866CS doesn't appear to support them, and right now I'm not able to re-program mine to be a TL866A, which does support Atmel 22V10C GALS.

I'm a bit loath to wipe my Lattice, as the booster is working and stable @40Mhz, but not if you want to use Ultrasatan. I guess I could back it up before I commit to trying a different program in the GAL, then I can at least go back.

At least I don't seem to have bricked the TL866 (Yet) but it's very frustrating that it just gets a reset fail now when I try and re-program it. It's all very annoying!
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800XL and 65XE both with Ultimate1MB,VBXL/XE & PokeyMax, SIDE3, SDrive Max, 2x 1010 cassette, 2x 1050 one with Happy mod, 3x 2600 Jr, 7800 and Lynx II
Approx 20 STs, including a 520 STM, 520 STFMs, 3x Mega ST, MSTE & 2x 32 Mhz boosted STEs
Plus the rest, totalling around 50 machines including a QL, 3x BBC Model B, Electron, Spectrums, ZX81 etc...
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Re: STE V1.5 32MHz BOOSTER - STATUS

Post by rubber_jonnie »

Ok, so thanks to exxos for sending over a pre-programmed Atmel GAL so I could do the rework.

The 40Mhz oscillator was removed from the booster and a 32Mhz feed provided from U405 as per the original booster, and a few other minor tweaks done, and the plug in booster seems to be running fine at 32Mhz, as per the original solder in booster.

Speed seems on a par, and I now have no issues running my CosmosEx hard drive, which is essentially an Ultrasatan.

I tried copying files from floppy to hard disk, and vice versa, and running various apps off hard drive. Everything I tried ran fine, whereas when running at 40Mhz, the hard drive wouldn't work at all, with any attempt to run apps causing all sorts of problems.

So, a good result IMHO.

Here is the before rework pic:
Before.jpg
Before.jpg (366.62 KiB) Viewed 6125 times
Here is the after rework pic:
IMG_20190311_223018.jpg
IMG_20190311_223018.jpg (329.42 KiB) Viewed 6108 times
Running @ 8Mhz:
8mhz.jpg
8mhz.jpg (275.82 KiB) Viewed 6125 times
And @ 32Mhz:
32Mhz.jpg
32Mhz.jpg (278.28 KiB) Viewed 6125 times
Collector of many retro things!
800XL and 65XE both with Ultimate1MB,VBXL/XE & PokeyMax, SIDE3, SDrive Max, 2x 1010 cassette, 2x 1050 one with Happy mod, 3x 2600 Jr, 7800 and Lynx II
Approx 20 STs, including a 520 STM, 520 STFMs, 3x Mega ST, MSTE & 2x 32 Mhz boosted STEs
Plus the rest, totalling around 50 machines including a QL, 3x BBC Model B, Electron, Spectrums, ZX81 etc...
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Re: STE V1.5 32MHz BOOSTER - STATUS

Post by exxos »

Thanks for the update and glad its now behaving.
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viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1585 Have you done the Mandatory Fixes ?
Just because a lot of people agree on something, doesn't make it a fact. ~exxos ~
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Re: STE V1.5 32MHz BOOSTER - STATUS

Post by rubber_jonnie »

exxos wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:14 am Thanks for the update and glad its now behaving.
Glad we got to here, it was nice to see all of our discussions turn into something useful.
Collector of many retro things!
800XL and 65XE both with Ultimate1MB,VBXL/XE & PokeyMax, SIDE3, SDrive Max, 2x 1010 cassette, 2x 1050 one with Happy mod, 3x 2600 Jr, 7800 and Lynx II
Approx 20 STs, including a 520 STM, 520 STFMs, 3x Mega ST, MSTE & 2x 32 Mhz boosted STEs
Plus the rest, totalling around 50 machines including a QL, 3x BBC Model B, Electron, Spectrums, ZX81 etc...
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Re: STE V1.5 32MHz BOOSTER - STATUS

Post by rubber_jonnie »

So booster is all good, and I've now re-flashed my TL866CS to TL866A firmware and will add the headers it needs to add in ICSP programming too.

Damn thing still doesn't seem to support Atmel 22V10C GALs though :(

But the booster is good!!
Collector of many retro things!
800XL and 65XE both with Ultimate1MB,VBXL/XE & PokeyMax, SIDE3, SDrive Max, 2x 1010 cassette, 2x 1050 one with Happy mod, 3x 2600 Jr, 7800 and Lynx II
Approx 20 STs, including a 520 STM, 520 STFMs, 3x Mega ST, MSTE & 2x 32 Mhz boosted STEs
Plus the rest, totalling around 50 machines including a QL, 3x BBC Model B, Electron, Spectrums, ZX81 etc...
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Re: STE V1.5 32MHz BOOSTER - STATUS

Post by exxos »

In case people missed it.. The STE booster project is basically abandoned now and been removed from my store.

The plug in boards have been a nightmare from day 1 and it's just time to move on from it all. Not only are the failures of building these boards really high ( I don't know why) but since finding out different socket brands have different dimensions than the booster header pins, I am not about to start doing multiple versions of the same thing.

The 40MHz operation turned out to need much more complex PLD logic which means we are basically back to the 32MHz V1 design. I also found multiple issues with various GAL chips, where only certain ones would work at all. This also created huge issues. As people know I started using the Atmel ones, where I had to change the booster design to work with these chips. But I am really not happy with what seems to be, really bad hardware tolerances on the chips. So I cannot simply make these things up and have them work. It is a fight for each chip fitted to get it working.

If anything, the V1 design (the solder in version) would be the only version I would consider making again.. But with all the troubles of the PLCC sockets, I would need to revise the PCB to use a SMT one, as those generally tend to be better fitting.. But again, I'm not about to spend the time starting this project all over again, designing the circuit boards, building them up, testing them, debugging them.. But even so, I really would not want to use the 22V10's again on these boosters. I would really opt to move to a Altera or ATF15xx series.. But then it's starting the whole project again from scratch for a third time.

I think I have spent enough time on it all already to know that the STE is a lot more problematical to work on than I originally thought. I really don't have the time or patience to keep debugging endless design faults on these machines, That's even before getting to debugging the booster hardware itself. But as I am fighting tolerances on chips as well, it is not a good project to invest time into.

The same issue with the STFM motherboards with multiple motherboard revisions, all with their own quirks. You cant fix multiple issues by a simple hardware add-on. Each motherboard has to be debugged and fixes applied even before getting to the point of adding hardware. All this has become a total nightmare over the past few years and it is not work I am prepared to do any more. I'm hardly even spending time on debugging my own designed hardware, I am debugging hardware which someone else designed 30+ years ago! Its not a good use of time.

As per what I said in my action plan of this year...

https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/forum/viewt ... =20&t=1182

I'm actually abandoning Falcon and STE hardware development as I simply do not have the time to work on every machine. But it is not simply that, all the hardware faults have just become too great to warrant spending the time to keep debugging them. IMHO it is just better to move over to the STF remake project where I can build a motherboard which works properly right from the start. This way hardware development will happen a order of magnitude faster as I will not have to to debug endless faults which appear on the original Atari motherboards.

IMHO Keeping the original machines working in their original working condition is likely going to be a challenge enough in coming years. Trying to build add-ons for these machines it is not really good idea anymore.

If people want upgraded machines, they should come on over to the remake project forum and help out with that as building a new machine with hardware add-ons built in is a lot better direction to move in.
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viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1585 Have you done the Mandatory Fixes ?
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Re: STE V1.5 32MHz BOOSTER - STATUS

Post by exxos »

I keep getting asked about STE boosters.. I think a lot of people have not read the above post..

In short, the plug-in boosters have been abandoned will not be produced again.

I am considering another batch of the "solder in" V1 boosters. Though the problem is the GAL's are such poor tolerances that I have to test like 20 of them to get one which works right. So it is not simply a case of building them again. I need to do a lot of work into that issue first.. And I just have so many projects ongoing its not high up on my to do list at the moment.

Aside from that, a lot of the people who fited this booster ended up knackering their motherboard up and wanting help to fix it, and I really don't have the time or patience to go through all that again at the moment.

So there will be another batch of V1, but It will sometime in the new year when I have caught up with other projects a bit more.
https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/atari/store2/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1585 Have you done the Mandatory Fixes ?
Just because a lot of people agree on something, doesn't make it a fact. ~exxos ~
People should find solutions to problems, not find problems with solutions.
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