The "perfect" TT?

General discussions or ideas about hardware.
tuxie
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Re: The "perfect" TT?

Post by tuxie » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:25 pm

Hello,

yes you are right, the TT is the Only Original Atari with true 32bit Bus, also the ST-Ram is 64bit width so that CPU and Shifter can access simultanoues.

The problem is there are many different Board layouts,

1. Daughterboard TT, PGA Socket with plugged daughterboard for double the speed (easiest to extend)
2. PGA TT with true PGA CPU plugged (also easy to extend)

this both Versions are very rar
Most TT´s have the Soldered SMT CPU.

We had already the idea to use the Fastram Slot but there are missing alot of control signals, so its not that easy to handle it. And making a Accelerator only for the PGA TTs is sensless and too much work.

Best is to Remake the TT ^^

Cyprian
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Re: The "perfect" TT?

Post by Cyprian » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:32 pm

tuxie wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:25 pm
Hello,

yes you are right, the TT is the Only Original Atari with true 32bit Bus, also the ST-Ram is 64bit width so that CPU and Shifter can access simultanoues.
actually, access to the ST-RAM is interleaved, in the same manner as in the ST. There is 4 million memory slots per seconds, the CPU gets even slots, the Shifter odd slots.
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IngoQ
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Re: The "perfect" TT?

Post by IngoQ » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:42 pm

tuxie wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:25 pm
this both Versions are very rar
Most TT´s have the Soldered SMT CPU.
This reminds me the situation with my STE: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=68

Same problem: CPU is directly surface mount PLCC. I even tried building an adapter that could go between a PLCC socket and exxos booster, but the signals were crap and it did not work.

Probably exxoss V1.5 STE booster could give you some ideas? viewtopic.php?f=24&t=46&start=10#p5176

Soldering in a SMT PLCC socket is not that hard...
Ingo :geek:

| Atari 1040STE@32MHz | Amiga 1200 (ACA1220) | Atari 800XL (U1MB, SIDE2) | Atari 130XL (Sophia DVI) | C64 (1541 Ultimate II, Rev3 RFMod Replacement) | TI 99/4A (F18A, 32k, FlashROM 99) | Sinclair ZX Spectrum 128 (Stereo, DivMMC) | Amstrad CPC664 (512k, M4 Wifi) | ... |

mikro
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Re: The "perfect" TT?

Post by mikro » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:11 pm

IngoQ wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:04 pm
What puzzles me is, that there were apparently no attempts in fitting a 68060 in the TT, since it would seem to be so more logically to upgrade the CPU power of an TT than that of a Falcon.
On the contrary. Czuba had offered to design and produce such board but there were very few people interested in such hardware (like 30-40 where the goal was around 100). You can see this 'progress' (announcing, adding people, cancelling the project) on web.archive.org of Czuba's website.

tuxie
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Re: The "perfect" TT?

Post by tuxie » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:16 am

IngoQ wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:42 pm
tuxie wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:25 pm
this both Versions are very rar
Most TT´s have the Soldered SMT CPU.
This reminds me the situation with my STE: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=68

Same problem: CPU is directly surface mount PLCC. I even tried building an adapter that could go between a PLCC socket and exxos booster, but the signals were crap and it did not work.

Probably exxoss V1.5 STE booster could give you some ideas? viewtopic.php?f=24&t=46&start=10#p5176

Soldering in a SMT PLCC socket is not that hard...
The Problem is, the CPU has much more pins then a 68000 CPU so idk if you can get an adaptor for this socket!

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IngoQ
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Re: The "perfect" TT?

Post by IngoQ » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:55 am

Yes, you're right. The 68030 was QFP, not PLCC. There are 132-pin QFP sockets, but they are extremely expensive, so most likely not a viable solution. There are QFP to PGA adaptors, but they adapt PLCC CPUs to go in PGA sockets, not the other way around.

One could probably try to do something like this: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=68&start=40#p1711

But this would require serious soldering technique and would probably not be any better, than anything you are planning to do now.
Ingo :geek:

| Atari 1040STE@32MHz | Amiga 1200 (ACA1220) | Atari 800XL (U1MB, SIDE2) | Atari 130XL (Sophia DVI) | C64 (1541 Ultimate II, Rev3 RFMod Replacement) | TI 99/4A (F18A, 32k, FlashROM 99) | Sinclair ZX Spectrum 128 (Stereo, DivMMC) | Amstrad CPC664 (512k, M4 Wifi) | ... |

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arf
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Re: The "perfect" TT?

Post by arf » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:23 pm

stephen_usher wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:16 pm
You have to remember that when the TT was on the market 32MHz was considered a high clock speed.

High end PCs at the time (costing a lot more than the TT) had only just got the 80486 processor running at 33MHz. Sun UNIX workstations, costing close to 10 times the price of the TT were either 32MHz 68030 (Sun 3/80) or 20MHz SPARC (SPARCstation 1).

So, the TT was up there with the best of them.
1989, it would’ve been, yes. 1990, halfway. 1991: Game over. The TT’s original price (~8000 DM in Germany, about 4000€ “back then”) was higher than normal 486s. Yes, these didn’t have TT High and no SCSI. But these were faster, way faster. Only the 68040 can compete with the 80486, and only if the latter runs <40 MHz. But the 16/32 MHz 68030 architecture of the TT had no chance in CPU performance compared to PCs.
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calimero
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Re: The "perfect" TT?

Post by calimero » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:24 am

And what software you would run on PC in 1991.? :D

There were many comparison reviews in magazines of Amiga 3000, TT and some Mac back in 90s. (I could search and scan it if someone wants.)
8000DM was with 19" monitor, right?

ST succesor was started back in 1987. or even earlyer. There is interview with Shiraz Shivji talking about 32bit Atari fron 1987.
TT was finished after many, many delays... Maybe best source how "bump" ride TT development has is newsgroup (I can not find link now, will search later). Roy Good was hire by Atari to finish what become TT. Probably after Shiraz Shivji left Atari.
To bad that Atari did not release 32bit computer in 80s...

Edit:
I just check PC Magazine from mid 1990.
https://archive.org/stream/PC_Magazine_ ... 9#page/n13

and I have trouble finding 486 in ads but 33MHz 386 with 2MB and monitor are around 3300$ which was 6600DM.
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

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arf
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Speed comparison TT (was: The "perfect" TT?)

Post by arf » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:24 pm

calimero wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:24 am
And what software you would run on PC in 1991.? :D
The question here was how much performance you get per $$$. And the TT would’ve been good in 1989, but not in 1991 any longer.
calimero wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:24 am
There were many comparison reviews in magazines of Amiga 3000, TT and some Mac back in 90s. (I could search and scan it if someone wants.)
8000DM was with 19" monitor, right?
No, without. Only after the last price drop in late 1991, Atari included a cheap, bad 60 Hz flicker 640x480 VGA screen in the base package of the TT.
calimero wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:24 am
ST succesor was started back in 1987. or even earlyer. There is interview with Shiraz Shivji talking about 32bit Atari fron 1987.
TT was finished after many, many delays... Maybe best source how "bump" ride TT development has is newsgroup (I can not find link now, will search later). Roy Good was hire by Atari to finish what become TT. Probably after Shiraz Shivji left Atari.
To bad that Atari did not release 32bit computer in 80s...
Well, on the original EST of the mid-late 80’s most ST software of the time wouldn’t work at all, due to bad/unclean programming of many programmers.
calimero wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:24 am
I just check PC Magazine from mid 1990.
https://archive.org/stream/PC_Magazine_ ... 9#page/n13
and I have trouble finding 486 in ads but 33MHz 386 with 2MB and monitor are around 3300$ which was 6600DM.
Vobis and Escom offered 80486 starting in 1990.

June 1991:
- Escom 486/25
-- 4 MB RAM
-- Dual Floppy
-- VGA 1024x768 card with 256 colors, non-flicker
-- 90 MB HDD
-- about 17 MIPS
-- 5261 DM

June 1991:
- Atari TT030-4
-- 4 MB RAM
-- Single Floppy
-- VGA 640x480 in 16 colors, flicker
-- 48 MB HDD
-- about 5-6 MIPS
-- 4647 DM

So for roughly the same amount of money, the PC had triple the performance.

Sources:
http://www.cc-computerarchiv.de/CC-Arch ... -6_91.html
http://www.cc-computerarchiv.de/CC-Arch ... -6_91.html

(The Mega ST4 has been sold in late 1990 for 3156 DM. No HDD, no hi-res colors, about 1 MIPS.)

This is not about a system comparison, but a speed comparison. You don’t have to convince *me*, but the past, where PCs have won. I had GEM software to work with until the 2000’s.
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stephen_usher
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Re: The "perfect" TT?

Post by stephen_usher » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:45 am

Of course, you're looking at the wrong market segment.

The TT was initially aimed at the UNIX workstation market and not the generic PC market. The TT wasn't as fast as the Sun SPARCstation 1 but was double the speed of the Sun 3/80. The prices of these workstations was around £15000, as opposed to the TT's £3000, so the TT was very competitively priced. However, the TT didn't include ethernet networking as standard which was a major failing as this was one of the main strengths of the UNIX systems, showing that Atari just didn't understand that market at all. As Sun's slogan from the time put it, "The network is the computer."

This is the same market segment that the Amiga 3000 and later 4000 aimed at too.

The TT's compatibility with the ST helped it gain sales from those who had the latter but aspired for a better, faster machine.
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ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.

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