ST SHIFTER operation ?

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troed
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Re: ST SHIFTER operation ?

Post by troed »

exxos wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:46 pm While I think about it, has anyone noticed like the planes split apart on fast-moving objects on the screen? I have noticed this for a while actually..
Poorly done graphics libraries. Does not happen with proper demo scene code ;) I know of no such hardware issue.

But I want to repeat that to be _demo_ compatible care has to be taken to implement a replacement Shifter working pretty much exactly like the original one. Otherwise a lot of demos will glitch out visibly.
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Re: ST SHIFTER operation ?

Post by exxos »

troed wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:50 pm
Poorly done graphics libraries. Does not happen with proper demo scene code ;) I know of no such hardware issue.

But I want to repeat that to be _demo_ compatible care has to be taken to implement a replacement Shifter working pretty much exactly like the original one. Otherwise a lot of demos will glitch out visibly.
cool :)

Yes I want the shifter to be 100% compatible. Though likely the logic internally will not be 100% identical.. As to if this will actually break something or not it's hard to tell as we do not know the actual logic internals of the shifter, so some guess work will likely have to be done.
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Re: ST SHIFTER operation ?

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Thinking about it, more planes could actually be added.. I'm not sure what resolution and frame rate would end up like with the extra word been sent..
1.jpg
1.jpg (27.09 KiB) Viewed 4621 times
There seems to be plenty of room left in the register. We could actually use bit 2 to enable a fifth plane..
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Re: ST SHIFTER operation ?

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exxos wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:06 pm Thinking about it, more planes could actually be added.. I'm not sure what resolution and frame rate would end up like with the extra word been sent..

1.jpg

There seems to be plenty of room left in the register. We could actually use bit 2 to enable a fifth plane..
The problem lies in the MMU only latching words when it does - and in sync with the GLUE hsync/vsync/blank/DE. However, for a 16MHz boosted machine - a Shifter that understands such a boost could in theory do 320*200*256 (8 bitplanes) :)
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Re: ST SHIFTER operation ?

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troed wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:14 pm The problem lies in the MMU only latching words when it does - and in sync with the GLUE hsync/vsync/blank/DE. However, for a 16MHz boosted machine - a Shifter that understands such a boost could in theory do 320*200*256 (8 bitplanes) :)
:)

Not really thought about the other signals yet.. I guess the load rate by the MMU is constant, so if we added a extra word or a extra plane, this would mean I think the resolution would actually be lower ? Adding a extra word into the mix would mean some MMU time is taken up with shifting more data as opposed to actual pixels to the screen..I do not really know how it would work out...

But like you say anyway, we have double the throughput from their menu to the shifter, so given the same resolutions, like you say, we could easily have 8-bit planes in low resolution..

Though really if we doubled the bit planes in medium resolution will will be back to distinct colours in medium resolution with a current mods which you have done..


I think the data rate MMU is constant per pixel line, as we see for example with 320 pixels across, we have can have four bit planes, or 640 pixels across for 2 bit planes, the data rate, or the words shifted per line is exactly the same in each case..

Of course now we have MMU running at double speed, we can shift twice as much words and use them as we see fit.. So we could actually shift, again as you say, 320 pixels across with 8 bit planes, or 640 pixels across with four bit planes..

But we also must take into account we was aiming for higher resolutions.. But I guess the MMU overclocked can either go into more bit planes or more resolution, I guess it does not really matter as long as we are tallying up the data throughput correctly.

But really what does actually get set with the MMU that it loads for words at a time ? I would just assume the MMU is not that intelligent, and it is basically just bit banging data from ram into the shifter and just continues doing that over and over.. In which case if the shifter supported a extra bit planes for 32 colours for example, the MMU would just continue to output the data in order as it was before, the of course the shifter would have to process the extra bit plane, which is going to take time, and time would ultimately mean less time outputting pixels.

Overall, as we are still running slightly faster than the stock machine with the double size resolution, I think we could easily squeeze in a 58 plane for all the extended resolutions.. Of course it would need software to support this extra video mode..

I guess as we have lots of extra bits to play with in the register, all sorts of additional combinations of bit planes resolutions could be added. Though we would likely need a bit of hackery and extra address line to the shifter to program the extra colour palettes..

The another slight problem is that it would probably need different dot clock speed also.

My brain hurts now :lol:
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Re: ST SHIFTER operation ?

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@ troed (or anyone)..

What was the talks about the shifter wake states thing a while ago ? While we are digging around internally, we could see exactly whats going on with the logic to upset such things.. Though my first guess is the 4 banks of 16 bit shifters do not have a reset, so pot luck which data from the MMU gets loaded into which shifter first...
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Re: ST SHIFTER operation ?

Post by keli »

In addition to the speed of the screen data coming in, without additional address pins you'll have a problem programming the extra palette registers required for more than 16 colours on screen at the same time.

Another option is to use the unused fourth bit in each RGB nibble in the existing colour entries to support 4096 colours like on the STE. You could even use the most significant nibble to add yet four more bits (red and blue get one more, green could get two) to support 65536 colours. You'd have to add extra RGB pins and add more resistors to add their contribution to the analog output, though, but it wouldn't require significant changes elsewhere. (Apart from software of course)
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Re: ST SHIFTER operation ?

Post by keli »

exxos wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:41 pm @ troed (or anyone)..

What was the talks about the shifter wake states thing a while ago ? While we are digging around internally, we could see exactly whats going on with the logic to upset such things.. Though my first guess is the 4 banks of 16 bit shifters do not have a reset, so pot luck which data from the MMU gets loaded into which shifter first...
There is the DE or "Display Enable" pin. When DE goes active, the Shifter should start shifting out pixels. You could zero out all the shift registers at that point and it'll just show color 0 until the MMU starts loading screen data into them, which is correct as it would be rendering the border.
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Re: ST SHIFTER operation ?

Post by exxos »

hmm... maybe Troed could take a LA of CS,LOAD,DE, 32mhz so we can see the relationship of all those signals.
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Re: ST SHIFTER operation ?

Post by troed »

exxos wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:50 am hmm... maybe Troed could take a LA of CS,LOAD,DE, 32mhz so we can see the relationship of all those signals.
Adding two traces that Dio made a long time ago over at A-F, and I used as a basis for some of the thinking around the GLUE statemachine.

shifter_160.png
shifter_160.png (24.39 KiB) Viewed 4574 times
50hz_video clock DE to load to screen latencies.png
50hz_video clock DE to load to screen latencies.png (28.51 KiB) Viewed 4574 times

/TRoed
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