Hard disk storage media

General discussions or ideas about hardware.
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exxos
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Re: Hard disk storage media

Post by exxos » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:56 pm

Okay thanks, so basically avoid USB..
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - 4MB STE 32MHz - STFM 16MHz - STM - MEGA ST - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - HxC - CosmosEx - Ultrasatan - various clutter

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tuxie
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Re: Hard disk storage media

Post by tuxie » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:04 pm

On our Thunder IDE interface we put all Data lines through the CPLD and use it to swap the data... we made it in two ways
1.Falcon Compatible like all other IDE Interfaces
2. ByteSwap (swap upper and lower data byte)
3. A mix of both, only the data self is swapped, so with HDDriver you can read/write Dos Compatible partitions with full Speed and its also Bootable

Best way is todo a Interface like the Thunder for TT, normaly not that much work. With Simple CPLD its easy to solve.

Petari
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Re: Hard disk storage media

Post by Petari » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:31 am

Considering USB device support: USB is really not for our oldies - as may see, even TT is slow for it. I was thinking about making some adapter, based on some old, cheap, on CPU bus attachable USB chip. But that would need not simple SW, and as said, it would load CPU of Atari a lot.
If there is on market some simple, not expensive adapter - what acts like IDE disk on IDE connector side, and has USB connector for Pen drive - that should be fine, fast, and not loading Atari CPU while no disk access.

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IngoQ
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Re: Hard disk storage media

Post by IngoQ » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:48 am

Petari wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:31 am
If there is on market some simple, not expensive adapter - what acts like IDE disk on IDE connector side, and has USB connector for Pen drive - that should be fine, fast, and not loading Atari CPU while no disk access.
http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=73

Netusbee has a USB Port with Storage Support based on ISP1160, but I don't know anything about performance...
Ingo :geek:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

tuxie
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Re: Hard disk storage media

Post by tuxie » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:49 am

Petari wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:31 am
Considering USB device support: USB is really not for our oldies - as may see, even TT is slow for it. I was thinking about making some adapter, based on some old, cheap, on CPU bus attachable USB chip. But that would need not simple SW, and as said, it would load CPU of Atari a lot.
If there is on market some simple, not expensive adapter - what acts like IDE disk on IDE connector side, and has USB connector for Pen drive - that should be fine, fast, and not loading Atari CPU while no disk access.
This is just your opininion, we got a lot of positiv opininions about the USB Interface!
IngoQ wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:48 am
Petari wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:31 am
If there is on market some simple, not expensive adapter - what acts like IDE disk on IDE connector side, and has USB connector for Pen drive - that should be fine, fast, and not loading Atari CPU while no disk access.
http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=73

Netusbee has a USB Port with Storage Support based on ISP1160, but I don't know anything about performance...
NetUSBee is only Mouse working, Storage isnt working correctly. And also not Fast.. for me our USB Solution isnt slow.. its working very well and the USB Stick is also plug and play.

Petari
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Re: Hard disk storage media

Post by Petari » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:22 am

tuxie wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:49 am
...
This is just your opininion, we got a lot of positiv opininions about the USB Interface!
...
NetUSBee is only Mouse working, Storage isnt working correctly. And also not Fast.. for me our USB Solution isnt slow.. its working very well and the USB Stick is also plug and play.
Well, if for you 6x slower than IDE is "isnt slow" then I have nothing more to say here. I don't want to disrespect your design and effort about it.

troed
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Re: Hard disk storage media

Post by troed » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:10 pm

I've used Alan H's Unicorn (ACSI USB interface) as the main hard drive in my souped up development STE for years now. I do agree it seems slower than other HD solutions, some HD only demos have failed to run, but it's plenty fast for day to day usage IMHO.

Since I've made a completely internal solution, I have a USB host port on the side of the computer. The partitions are DOS/TOS compatible (HD driver) and I regularly pop the USB flash pen drive between my Mac and Atari while developing since it's hot-mountable.
finished_small.JPG
finished_small.JPG (835.83 KiB) Viewed 388 times
FWIW - I have the feeling USB will be with us longer than SD cards (even though the same machine also has an internal HxC with the SD card poking out the back)

Petari
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Re: Hard disk storage media

Post by Petari » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:28 pm

There are over 3 billion smartphones and tablets around. Practically all of it has SD card slot. They have micro USB conn. too, but it works with Pen drives mostly only on tablets and on more expensive phones. SD card is cheaper for manufacturing. I bought year ago 16GB microSD with 2 adapters - for normal size slot and for USB conn. All it was under 15 Euros. Bought Sandisk Pen drive (16GB too) with micro USB conn - but it works only with my tablet - it self costed more than previous package.
I'm sure that both will be long-long time yet in mass usage.

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Re: Hard disk storage media

Post by exxos » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:35 pm

My original thought for USB was that it is easy to transfer over to the PC as USB slots are generally standard and SD card lots are not, is of course possible with a USB adapter cable. So I thought it would be a lot better to use USB sticks as they would likely be around the longest. Of course I don't think SD cards will vanish any time soon either. Though it sounds like while USB is possible, it sounds more like how flash memory works.

One of the IDE bridge chips I was looking at supported SD & USB I think. The front-end interface would just be generic IDE so as far as the Atari is concerned everything should be the same. Only actual storages SD or USB. Of course I have not looked into any of this but I would assume IC itself would take care of all the operations.. Terrible fire is using a similar chip but for SATA instead.

Of course it is thinking way too far into the future but I think in terms of keeping things simple that I should really just stick to IDE interface, because there are already IDE to SD card adapters about very cheap. I have not even looked if there is IDE to USB adapters.. quickly reading the said about USB.. I think it could just be more trouble than it is worth in terms of interfacing. But this of course depends on how the controller works which I don't really have time to look into any time soon.
4MB STFM 1.44 FD- VELOCE+ 020 STE - 4MB STE 32MHz - STFM 16MHz - STM - MEGA ST - Falcon 030 CT60 - Atari 2600 - Atari 7800 - Gigafile - SD Floppy Emulator - PeST - HxC - CosmosEx - Ultrasatan - various clutter

https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/ All my hardware guides - mods - games - STOS
https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/last/storenew/ - All my hardware mods for sale - Please help support by making a purchase.

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Pacman
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Re: Hard disk storage media

Post by Pacman » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:23 pm

tuxie wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:51 pm
i am one of the Hardware developer of the Thunder Storm and Lightnung USB Card.

Some Informations:

Thunder:
Falcon Compatible IDE Interface for the Atari TT
Feature: Falcon Compatible, pure Byteswap, Smartswap (only the Data is swappt, not the Controll Register (HDDriver Compatible) )
We reacht upto 6Mb/s in Stock TT, with my Boosted TT i get 7,4MB/s (only reachable when the driver is loaded into fastram (hddriver has a special setting for it)

Storm:
Atari TT Fastram Card upto 256Mb, with EDO Burst Mode Support, 20Mb/s Write and 17,3MB/s Read with non boosted Falcon

Lightning VME
Pickiback pcb what is plugged on the backside of the Atari MegaSTE/TT Vme Backplane
Supported Devices
USB Storage (Stick, Card Readers like SD or CF)
USB Mouse
USB Network adapter (we reached 2,07Mbit/s )
USB CD-ROM/DVD-ROM/xxx-Burner

(Maybe keyboard is in work)

On Atari TT wie reached a datatransfer speed of 670Kbyte/s and with Mega STE we reached 320kbyte/s (USB Stick)

Maybe its also possible to make a solution for normal ST....
Wow!!!! That is indeed impressive! :-D
USB keyboard support in addition to the above and working in an ST/STe would be fantastic!
All the best for developing this further :thumbup:
Mega STe | MonSTer with dual IDE-CF memory card adapter | STe | SM-144 |NEC Multisync 1990SXi | IDE doubler | ST_ESSC | RSVE | ICD Link II | Link '97 | HD floppy drive/AJAX | HD floppy module | Minolta PCMCIA card-drive | Realtime Clock module | Discovery cartridge | Unitor-2 | Export | Combiner | Steady Eye | Human Touch | Unicorn USB

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