When is a ST not a ST anymore ?

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IngoQ
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Re: When is a ST not a ST anymore ?

Post by IngoQ »

That's a very subjective thing, I guess.

My motivation behind my retro recollection is exploring all the nice things that once were, when I was a kid and could not have. Basically this implies having the original hardware.

I am perfectly fine with enhancing that experience with modern components, be if for convenience or added performance, as long as it is reversible. Meaning a FPGA boosted ST would interest me, a completely new FPGA based board would not.

When having to replace broken parts I would of course prefer new over old, since I want my machines to last. FPGA for me is a route to go, since it tries to implement the original hardware. Emulating it with a piece of hardware that runs its own operating system is my least preferred way.

So for example, I would not consider the MIST, since it is all new. I would consider Cosmos EX, since it is reversible. I would not buy an all new ST, be it FPGA or chip based, since it is all new. I would consider a very much enhanced ST derivation though, but not as part of my retro collection, but for fun and curiosity.

Regarding other platforms: I have bought a ACA1220 (68020 accelerator) for my Amiga 1200, even if it takes over pretty much the complete system. Why? Because in my time, accelerators for Amigas already where common expansions, and it is reversible. But I did not buy the C64 Chamaleon, since it only uses the C64 as a power source and can run without it.
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Re: When is a ST not a ST anymore ?

Post by exxos »

Past accelerators is also subjective.. I mean, if 20 years ago , I put a PAK020 in my ST, is that ST still a ST ? It won't run everything...

Same argument with the Falcon.. Falcon is not a ST, BUT it can run *some* ST stuff...

I think a ST should be 100% compatible with a real ST, and have enhancements ,kinda of like the Falcon, but without moving to a higher version of TOS or CPU which is where compatibility issues happen.

If the suska CPU is 100% compatible, then likely it can be used, though we can probably get in effect a 100MHz 68000, which isn't possible with the proper 68000 (maybe 50-60MHz area). Speed is of course welcome, but I can't help but feel its robbing the ST of some of its identity in not having a motorola CPU at its core..
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Re: When is a ST not a ST anymore ?

Post by DrF »

Another point say a ST gets super mega modded to death, what exactly will it be running?
What old software could benefit?
Sure some of those old audio/art apps would benefit from a bit more ram and few more mhz but at what point does new hardware stop adding any benefit to them?
Would anyone write stuff just for the new hardware?
And if you write new software for the new hardware which would be a requirement suddenly it's not going to work on a plain ST?

There has to be a point where there's no point in going faster/bigger?

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Re: When is a ST not a ST anymore ?

Post by exxos »

:lol:

My philosophy is to boost speed for legacy software.. Games like frontier, castle master, 3D stuff, run at like 1 frame per hour so faster the better. All software should run nicer. The programming guys like Troed use a ST to compile.. so programmers can make user of faster machines there.. but also they can do at least demos to show of the new speeds.

The suska core, lets just assume it can run all instructions in one cycle.. the "speed" is unknown... demo coders need cycle accurate things , its why my booster break fullscreen stuff, as the timings are all "random".. If suska was "random" or unknown timings, you break stuff just the same.

BUT. if we ran at exactly 200% speed "across the system" then demo coders can likely tweak software and use the same tricks again.. So while a booster will break stuff, timings are exactly 200%. So software can be fixed, and we still have the option to run compatible software on a accelerated machine.

But this won't work as found with the current boosters as stuff can run anywhere between 100% - 200% speeds.. its to "random" and a suska core running "random" would break more stuff...
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Re: When is a ST not a ST anymore ?

Post by troed »

exxos wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:59 pm BUT. if we ran at exactly 200% speed "across the system" then demo coders can likely tweak software and use the same tricks again.. So while a booster will break stuff, timings are exactly 200%. So software can be fixed, and we still have the option to run compatible software on a accelerated machine.
I actually failed sync locking on my 200% bus-boosted ST. I can somehow understand it - the GLUE isn't boosted.

(I tried writing a regular "clear Shifter through opened right border with a L16 stabilizer" app ... it works less well when not cycle exact :/)
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Re: When is a ST not a ST anymore ?

Post by exxos »

troed wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:21 pm I actually failed sync locking on my 200% bus-boosted ST. I can somehow understand it - the GLUE isn't boosted.

(I tried writing a regular "clear Shifter through opened right border with a L16 stabilizer" app ... it works less well when not cycle exact :/)
ah , so any boost will break stuff then :(
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Re: When is a ST not a ST anymore ?

Post by DrF »

exxos wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:59 pm :lol:

My philosophy is to boost speed for legacy software.. Games like frontier, castle master, 3D stuff, run at like 1 frame per hour so faster the better. All software should run nicer. The programming guys like Troed use a ST to compile.. so programmers can make user of faster machines there.. but also they can do at least demos to show of the new speeds.
Means we end up making new stuff for certain apps/games and breaking others?
I've seen certain arcade games remade on newer boards and worked on but only for that single game or family of games.

I guess a nice side effect of FPGA software emulation is you can have a machine dedicated to that 1 app.

ProTracker/CuBase in your pocket, that would be pretty cool :D

Miniature portable Frontier hand held console, prob be better off with a phone anyhow :lol:
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Re: When is a ST not a ST anymore ?

Post by rubber_jonnie »

Hmm, interesting thought.

IMHO, if it looks like an ST, and operates like an ST, and has all the same connectors as an ST, then for me, it's an ST.

If you buy a car, and have to replace the engine because it goes boom, it's still the same make and model, even if the engine has a different serial number.

Just my humble opinion.
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Re: When is a ST not a ST anymore ?

Post by DrF »

rubber_jonnie wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:39 pm If you buy a car, and have to replace the engine because it goes boom, it's still the same make and model, even if the engine has a different serial number.
I've just done that, and although I could have fitted newer, more powerful engines I had lying about, I decided to fit the same engine again. I was lucky that I had one. I had various reasons part of it was the character of the car as odd as that seems to normal people.

However I did mold that engine into what I wanted before I put it in, kind of maxing it out if you will I guess like a upgraded ST in way.
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Re: When is a ST not a ST anymore ?

Post by exxos »

So if we put a F1 engine into a mini, is it still a mini ?
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