Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

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stephen_usher
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Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by stephen_usher »

Last night I tried firing up MiNT 1.12 on my TT for the first time since the memory upgrade to 68MB and... it just sat there.

The version banner came up but that was it. The machine was still alive as the mouse cursor still moved but it just didn't get any further.

So, now we know that the old MiNT has a maximum memory limit. Oh well.

P.S. I hear you ask why use MiNT 1.12? Well, it was the last version before the FreeMiNT fork and Frank moved MiNT away from its UNIX-like roots towards something else.

P.P.S. I'm now trying to install EasyMiNT 1.9... and hoping that I'm not mistranslating the German messages!
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by Icky »

stephen_usher wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:11 pm P.P.S. I'm now trying to install EasyMiNT 1.9... and hoping that I'm not mistranslating the German messages!
Google Translate was my friend during my EasyMiNT 1.9 install as I was unsure what all the options were.
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by Steve »

When you say they moved it from its Unix like roots what do you mean specifically? What kind of changes did they make
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by stephen_usher »

Steve wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:02 am When you say they moved it from its Unix like roots what do you mean specifically? What kind of changes did they make
From reading the changelog, in the late 90s the developers, who were more interested in graphical desktop use than command-line (and focusing on XaAES), started removing parts of the system they didn't understand, such as the nascent share library and virtual memory code. The memory protection system has languished too. "Recently" they removed the virtual console code as the developer thought it wasn't useful.
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.
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stephen_usher
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by stephen_usher »

P.S. I'm surprised that after all these years the EasyMiNT/SpareMiNT system still uses my original init(8) program, and a version compiled in 1995 at that!
P.P.S. I find it annoying that it seems every component that starts during the boot writes a copyright statement. <rant>It seems like pure vanity to me. They should only print the bare minimum required to update the user/sysadmin of the configuration status, all the messages scroll off the screen obscuring the important information anyway. I don't care who wrote the filesystem code, that should be in the source only as the whole system is a collaborative effort.</rant>
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.
mikro
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by mikro »

stephen_usher wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:08 amstarted removing parts of the system they didn't understand, such as the nascent share library and virtual memory code. The memory protection system has languished too. "Recently" they removed the virtual console code as the developer thought it wasn't useful.
Neither of these sentences are true. You shouldn't rely on some ancient logs but ask developers directly...

Shared libraries/vm has never been implemented (only talked about), memory protection works as good as the current (non-vm) state allows it to do so and virtual consoles have always been hack which simply stopped working because nobody cared about it and new features (yes, UNIX features) needed to be implemented.
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by stephen_usher »

Actually, shared libraries were implemented, starting in 94/95.

You forget that I was one of the kernel developers in the early days. It's not only the Changelogs which colours my opinion. I was on the MiNT mailing list until they moved away from using that to something else, I forget what, about 5 years ago.

Once I got my TT operational again I even asked if they needed any help and was rebuffed (in a sneering manner) as they were only interested in XaAES integration at the time and weren't interested in the multi-user side of MiNT at all. It was clear that they were an inward looking group who didn't want outsiders interfering in their hobby project.
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.
mikro
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by mikro »

stephen_usher wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:24 amOnce I got my TT operational again I even asked if they needed any help and was rebuffed (in a sneering manner) as they were only interested in XaAES integration at the time and weren't interested in the multi-user side of MiNT at all. It was clear that they were an inward looking group who didn't want outsiders interfering in their hobby project.
;-)

Just for the sake of argument, here is the full archive of ML dating back to 1993. I'd love to see at least one of your claims backed by a post in that archive: https://mikro.naprvyraz.sk/mint/index.html
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by stephen_usher »

I'm glad that you're not taking this as a personal argument. :) "You really had to be there at the time."

If you want to know precisely what I think the mis-steps in the development were, well:
  • Removing the ability to quit back to the desktop. From what I remember of this, Frank didn't want to maintain the code which saved and then copied the machine state back again. He didn't see why anyone would want to and hence it was a waste of space and time.
  • Forcing MiNT to start from the AUTO folder rather than after the Desktop had started. I seem to remember that this change was something to do with wanting to replace AES and hence not wanting the Desktop already "running".
  • Moving to require XHDI complient hard disk drivers for non-Atari-FAT filesystems. At the time I believe that the only driver to support this was HDDriver which was difficult to get hold of outside of Germany, or at least it was in the UK. It was also expensive at the time especially before "retro computing" was a thing.
For all this, though you have to remember that during this main period of the late 90s and very early noughties there was basically no retro scene and Atari users were few and far between. MiNT users were probably restricted to only a few people outside of the core developer gang, so they were developing for themselves basically. Why *would* they want to think wider in that case? So, this inward looking design is quite understandable.

P.S. As for the virtual consoles being a "hack", it wasn't really. It's all that can be done when you're using the Atari Shifter. The whole of MiNT is a "hack" if that's the case (which it was originally when I joined the project in 1990/91).
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.
mikro
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by mikro »

You are right - I wasn't there. Actually I'm still not there ;), I'm just helping guys with some infrastructure.

If you would like to discuss ideas / features, maybe it's worth signing up in the new ML: https://sourceforge.net/p/freemint/mail ... t-discuss/

There isn't many people left and any help is more than welcome. :)
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