MC68(xx)030RP(xxx) variants? What to get, and what to avoid?

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Re: MC68(xx)030RP(xxx) variants? What to get, and what to avoid?

Post by supaduper »

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Re: MC68(xx)030RP(xxx) variants? What to get, and what to avoid?

Post by terriblefire »

The trouble is these guys trawl the forums and we're going to see a spring up of fakes of those masks. Then we'll get irate people telling us they spent money on it and it didnt work. :/ Its lose-lose to post on forums about good masks & markings.
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Re: MC68(xx)030RP(xxx) variants? What to get, and what to avoid?

Post by bytestorm »

terriblefire wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 9:34 am The trouble is these guys trawl the forums and we're going to see a spring up of fakes of those masks. Then we'll get irate people telling us they spent money on it and it didnt work. :/ Its lose-lose to post on forums about good masks & markings.
You are missing my point, I am asking if we should be suprised that they dont work OVER their rated mhz?
Are they designed to be stable way over their rated speed?
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Re: MC68(xx)030RP(xxx) variants? What to get, and what to avoid?

Post by supaduper »

terriblefire wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 9:34 am The trouble is these guys trawl the forums and we're going to see a spring up of fakes of those masks. Then we'll get irate people telling us they spent money on it and it didnt work. :/ Its lose-lose to post on forums about good masks & markings.
Bang on Steve, so I just deleted my previous post, I for one am not going to comment on this subject as it gives to much information to the wrong people :(
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Re: MC68(xx)030RP(xxx) variants? What to get, and what to avoid?

Post by terriblefire »

bytestorm wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 9:43 am You are missing my point, I am asking if we should be suprised that they dont work OVER their rated mhz?
Are they designed to be stable way over their rated speed?
If you get the right masks they'll work to 55Mhz. The rating they have is based on their stability when tested over a high temperature range. So some will be marked at 40mhz when they can do room temperature no problem at 50Mhz.

However the rating marked on them is completely pot luck because the resellers can simply change this. The point I am making is you cannot trust the marking at all. Its no longer a dude with a marker pen. They can laser etch new markings on or manufacture new cases entirely. So posting that mask X is good means next week mask X will be available on ebay. For real.
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Re: MC68(xx)030RP(xxx) variants? What to get, and what to avoid?

Post by bytestorm »

terriblefire wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 9:49 am
bytestorm wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 9:43 am You are missing my point, I am asking if we should be suprised that they dont work OVER their rated mhz?
Are they designed to be stable way over their rated speed?
If you get the right masks they'll work to 55Mhz. The rating they have is based on their stability when tested over a high temperature range. So some will be marked at 40mhz when they can do room temperature no problem at 50Mhz.

However the rating marked on them is completely pot luck because the resellers can simply change this. The point I am making is you cannot trust the marking at all. Its no longer a dude with a marker pen. They can laser etch new markings on or manufacture new cases entirely. So posting that mask X is good means next week mask X will be available on ebay. For real.
Ok, I see. Then I understand. I initially just found it strange that it was expected to run at a much higher speed than rated (remarked or genuine is irrelevant). I thought to myself that if I buy a car that specifics states that the maximum speed is 120 km/h then I wouldnt be suprised if it indeed did not do 160km/h :) . But if its a common thing that they indeed 10/10 ( if genuine) was able to work stable at almost 2x speed, then I see why this is an issue :(

I have lots to learn in the amiga universe I understand ;)

Thanks all for the informative posts!
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Re: MC68(xx)030RP(xxx) variants? What to get, and what to avoid?

Post by Higgy »

Also removed my comments :)
There are things to look out for, but one of the biggest challenges is, are you getting exactly the chip shown?
I doubt it. Seller has 100 chips but chances are you are not getting 'the one' in the photo.
Conclusion. Play Russian roulette/eBay returns process or use trusted forum/scene member.
I wonder if any Chinese sellers have fired up WinUAE to see what all this AMIGA lark is. "Why do they want those 030 and 060's" ;)
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Re: MC68(xx)030RP(xxx) variants? What to get, and what to avoid?

Post by terriblefire »

I think maybe this will help ... however its not what the topic was originally about. Speed binning has been around since the 70s.

From https://forums.overclockersclub.com/top ... d-binning/
CPUs that are rated for different speeds are manufactured using the same process and at the same time. When chips are made, in particular processors, they are sorted based on tests done during the manufacturing process. If a chip is tested at the highest speed level and fails, it will be tested at successively lower levels until it passes. The chips are then sorted into bins according to the speeds they were tested at and passed. This is called speed binning. This also allows chip makers to produce one core chip for a particular model and then use speed binning to be able to offer a complete product line from low-end to high-end.


Early in the manufacturing process for a new CPU, manufacturers have a harder time getting chips to pass the high-end tests. The technology is newer, the process is newer, and the manufacturing techniques aren't fully tweaked yet. At this stage, there are more chips that don't pass the high-end tests and end up being binned as low-end chips. When a new CPU hits the market and the manufacturing process for that chip is young, you will have less chance getting a CPU that can be overclocked. At this stage, testing is more rigorous and binning is more exact. If it's binned at 2.4 GHz, for example, you probably won't be able to overclock it much beyond that, if at all.



Chip makers are constantly trying to improve and tweak their manufacturing processes. As the process matures and improves, more chips will pass at the higher levels and there will be more high-end chips than there are low-end chips. Some of these faster chips will be labeled and sold at lower rated speeds even though they passed the higher grade testing and can run at the faster speeds. Here's why...



Now that the manufacturing process has matured, many (if not most) chips will pass the speed tests at the high-end. The high-end speed bins will fill up faster than the low-end bins. Suppose the market demand is calling for more of the low-end CPUs for a particular model but the manufacturer now has more chips passing the higher speed binning tests. They will likely run short of the slower processors to meet market demand. And they can only sell so many of the top rated CPUs. That's the nature of the market. In order to fulfill market demand, they take high-end CPUs, label and sell them at the low-end speed and price. The reasoning is that it's better to make a little money on a lot of chips than no money on chips that aren't selling.



What does this mean for you? It means that when the manufacturing process has matured for a particular chip, you have a better chance of getting a high-end CPU that is labeled as low-end. It also means it may be easier to overclock this low-end CPU because there's a better chance that it's faster than labeled.



You won't know how much you can overclock any particular chip until you try. There is no way to tell exactly how much an individual CPU can be overclocked, but buying a lower-end CPU from a more mature manufacturing process will give you the best odds. It's always going to be easier to overclock a low-end chip rather than a high-end chip and even more so with a CPU from a mature manufacturing process.
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indicates how much hurting you shall receive."
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Re: MC68(xx)030RP(xxx) variants? What to get, and what to avoid?

Post by bytestorm »

Thanks @terriblefire :) That was an interesting read, I had no idea, but it all makes sense! :D
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Re: MC68(xx)030RP(xxx) variants? What to get, and what to avoid?

Post by richx »

sety wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 6:46 am They normally "blacktop" the fake IC and then laser etch the fake numbers. Acetone will remove the blacktop. If you're lucky you might even be able to see what the IC really is, if they haven't sanded it off.
Good point, acetone could be another tool for the chip case in addition to isopropyl alcohol for that ebay guarantee if needed, unless they are now manufacturing chip cases as well, which would be very ambitious for a 68030RP33B. Acetone might be too strong for genuine white markings as well though, not sure..
arkadiusz.makarenko wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 7:27 am For £6 delivered I don't think there is big gain and market for repainting to 33B variants. I bought like 3 from ebay and all work as expected. And as expected they are not doing that at 50mhz.
50B I bought one from ebay, it did look like brand new, like it was repainted, but is very solid at 50mhz - for the price £20 deliverd. I think it is genuine.
Repainting must be cheap enough, I’ve bought 5x EPROMs for $5 that were repainted just to make them “new”, worked fine though.
terriblefire wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 9:49 am If you get the right masks they'll work to 55Mhz. The rating they have is based on their stability when tested over a high temperature range. So some will be marked at 40mhz when they can do room temperature no problem at 50Mhz.
68030RP33Bs seem to have come out later in the game, around 93-96 from what I can tell from pictures, years after the initial 030s? Did these plastic green-bottom/black-top PGA ones still have different masks by that point? I.e., does anyone have 68030RP33Bs that they know to be genuine 33Mhz rated but still do not work at 50Mhz?
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