Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

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stephen_usher
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Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by stephen_usher » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:11 pm

Last night I tried firing up MiNT 1.12 on my TT for the first time since the memory upgrade to 68MB and... it just sat there.

The version banner came up but that was it. The machine was still alive as the mouse cursor still moved but it just didn't get any further.

So, now we know that the old MiNT has a maximum memory limit. Oh well.

P.S. I hear you ask why use MiNT 1.12? Well, it was the last version before the FreeMiNT fork and Frank moved MiNT away from its UNIX-like roots towards something else.

P.P.S. I'm now trying to install EasyMiNT 1.9... and hoping that I'm not mistranslating the German messages!
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.

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Icky
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by Icky » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:03 pm

stephen_usher wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:11 pm
P.P.S. I'm now trying to install EasyMiNT 1.9... and hoping that I'm not mistranslating the German messages!
Google Translate was my friend during my EasyMiNT 1.9 install as I was unsure what all the options were.

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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by Steve » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:02 am

When you say they moved it from its Unix like roots what do you mean specifically? What kind of changes did they make

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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by Petari » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:57 am

I will be not popular among some people because of following: while I dealt with different versions of Mint my impression was that it is rather something experimental, not really user friendly OS with some really annoying flaws which could be fixed if authors would have more testing platforms, will to do it, more knowledge. Yes, latest I say after some mailing.
I had problems with larger FAT32 partitions, and of course, that was because bad hard disk driver by Mint people. Surely was not - it worked well in other Atari OS (will not say here which), and same was with Hddriver.
And I really did not fire up it at all last 5-6 years. If I want Linux/Unix there is Ubuntu and it's derivates :D
There is 2 kind of people: one thinking about moving to Mars after here becomes too bad, the others thinking about how to keep this planet habitable.

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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by stephen_usher » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:08 am

Steve wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:02 am
When you say they moved it from its Unix like roots what do you mean specifically? What kind of changes did they make
From reading the changelog, in the late 90s the developers, who were more interested in graphical desktop use than command-line (and focusing on XaAES), started removing parts of the system they didn't understand, such as the nascent share library and virtual memory code. The memory protection system has languished too. "Recently" they removed the virtual console code as the developer thought it wasn't useful.
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.

stephen_usher
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Oxford, UK.
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by stephen_usher » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:16 am

Petari wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:57 am
I will be not popular among some people because of following: while I dealt with different versions of Mint my impression was that it is rather something experimental, not really user friendly OS with some really annoying flaws which could be fixed if authors would have more testing platforms, will to do it, more knowledge. Yes, latest I say after some mailing.
I had problems with larger FAT32 partitions, and of course, that was because bad hard disk driver by Mint people. Surely was not - it worked well in other Atari OS (will not say here which), and same was with Hddriver.
And I really did not fire up it at all last 5-6 years. If I want Linux/Unix there is Ubuntu and it's derivates :D
Well, it started in the early 90s when Eric Smith wanted to produce a mutli-tasking OS extension for TOS with UNIX-like functionality. It's a similar itch to the one Linus Torsvald wanted to scratch when he created Linux. So, yes, it was experimental.

After a couple of years of development (which I helped with in a minor way) Atari saw it and asked Eric to help them develop MultiTOS. Unfortunately at that point Eric left the stage and when Atari effectively stopped all development 1994/5 and FreeMiNT was created the focus and energy for the UNIX-like system faded.

It's become a hobby for a very small number of developers now, without any proper releases or schedule.
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.

stephen_usher
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by stephen_usher » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:23 am

P.S. I'm surprised that after all these years the EasyMiNT/SpareMiNT system still uses my original init(8) program, and a version compiled in 1995 at that!
P.P.S. I find it annoying that it seems every component that starts during the boot writes a copyright statement. <rant>It seems like pure vanity to me. They should only print the bare minimum required to update the user/sysadmin of the configuration status, all the messages scroll off the screen obscuring the important information anyway. I don't care who wrote the filesystem code, that should be in the source only as the whole system is a collaborative effort.</rant>
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.

mikro
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by mikro » Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:26 pm

stephen_usher wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:08 am
started removing parts of the system they didn't understand, such as the nascent share library and virtual memory code. The memory protection system has languished too. "Recently" they removed the virtual console code as the developer thought it wasn't useful.
Neither of these sentences are true. You shouldn't rely on some ancient logs but ask developers directly...

Shared libraries/vm has never been implemented (only talked about), memory protection works as good as the current (non-vm) state allows it to do so and virtual consoles have always been hack which simply stopped working because nobody cared about it and new features (yes, UNIX features) needed to be implemented.

stephen_usher
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Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by stephen_usher » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:24 am

Actually, shared libraries were implemented, starting in 94/95.

You forget that I was one of the kernel developers in the early days. It's not only the Changelogs which colours my opinion. I was on the MiNT mailing list until they moved away from using that to something else, I forget what, about 5 years ago.

Once I got my TT operational again I even asked if they needed any help and was rebuffed (in a sneering manner) as they were only interested in XaAES integration at the time and weren't interested in the multi-user side of MiNT at all. It was clear that they were an inward looking group who didn't want outsiders interfering in their hobby project.
Intro retro computers since before they were retro...
ZX81->Spectrum->Memotech MTX->Sinclair QL->520STM->BBC Micro->TT030->PCs & Sun Workstations.
Added code to the MiNT kernel (still there the last time I checked) + put together MiNTOS.
Collection now with added Macs, Amigas, Suns and Acorns.

mikro
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:22 pm

Re: Sad day: I'm having to "upgrade" from MiNT 1.12...

Post by mikro » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:16 am

stephen_usher wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:24 am
Once I got my TT operational again I even asked if they needed any help and was rebuffed (in a sneering manner) as they were only interested in XaAES integration at the time and weren't interested in the multi-user side of MiNT at all. It was clear that they were an inward looking group who didn't want outsiders interfering in their hobby project.
;-)

Just for the sake of argument, here is the full archive of ML dating back to 1993. I'd love to see at least one of your claims backed by a post in that archive: https://mikro.naprvyraz.sk/mint/index.html

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